Autumn Brown returns to Next Economy Now for her third conversation with Ryan Honeyman. Autumn is a mother, theologian, facilitator, musician, and cohost of How to Survive the End of the World alongside her sister adrienne maree brown. In this episode, she shares her journey of moving from cooperative leadership at AORTA into a new phase of life focused on music, writing, and martial arts, as well as her forthcoming book on fugitivity. At the heart of her work is the question: how do we practice freedom in an unfree world?
Together, Autumn and Ryan dive into what has shifted since 2020—exploring the backlash to racial justice movements, the difference between symbolic versus relational change, and why so much of today’s organizing can feel performative when not grounded in real relationship. Autumn emphasizes the need to move beyond fear, resentment, or judgment and instead organize from love, courage, and grief—energies that replenish rather than deplete. The conversation touches on coalition building across difference, how to choose when to hold firm and when to meet people where they are, and what it means to reach for governing power while staying rooted in liberatory practice.
Toward the end, the two reflect on martial arts as a surprising but powerful practice for those committed to nonviolence. Autumn shares how Aikido has reshaped her relationship to conflict and power, while Ryan reflects on his own entry into boxing as a healthy channel for rage and resilience. Though a smaller part of the discussion, it underscores a central theme: the practices that help us stay grounded, embodied, and awake are essential to sustaining movements and our lives within them.
Key Points From This Episode:
A brief overview of what we have missed in Autumn’s life since we last spoke. [0:06:40]
Autumn shares her thoughts on the current political climate and what that says about who we are as people. [0:14:52]
Navigating how to create actual social change (not symbolic change) in a damaged political system. [0:23:52]
Autumn shares how to balance prioritizing safety and political education in different environments. [0:35:23]
The danger of performative gestures and asking yourself what you can do and will do to identify where your fear lies. [0:44:25]
Reframing how we see people and why Autumn doesn’t see humans as fundamentally good or bad. [0:48:40]
Challenging your worldview and considering the most generous interpretation of a situation. [0:54:43]
Autumn tells us about her new book and the concept of practicing freedom as a fugitive. [0:57:41]
Quotations:
“It is often the case that people who are organizing for social change forget that they are deeply a part of the system that they are trying to change and that anything about that system that they find problematic lives inside of them.” — Autumn Brown [0:16:55]
“When you have social change relying on symbolic and not deeply understood actions, that sets us up for failures that we can’t anticipate.” — Autumn Brown [0:24:30]
“[Our political system] relies on oppression to function.” — Autumn Brown [0:29:43]
“I take the position that humans are neither fundamentally good nor fundamentally bad.” — Autumn Brown [0:48:48]
“We live in a society that is fundamentally violent in the way that it’s shaped, and in order for us to be functional inside of that society, a lot of us have to walk around in a fugue state.” — Autumn Brown [1:00:01]
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Autumn Brown: https://www.iambrown.org/
Autumn Brown on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/autumn-brown-0bab514/
Autumn Brown on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/autumnmeghanbrown/
How to Survive the End of the World: https://endoftheworldshow.org/
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